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Date: Fri Mar 11 14:47:52 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Sub MJ-12/Klass/Friedman/The Debate
If you have been following the UFO uploads, you will remember
that we have discussed the MJ-12 documents that were supplied
by Bill Moore/Jaime Shandera/Stanton T. Friedman.
As the skeptics know, Phil Klass has called these hoax docu-
ments. Well, the debate continues, and so does Stan
Friedman. The following was taken from the current issue
of SAUCER SMEAR which is put out by James Moseley of Florida:
Dear Jim:
The spelling of Air Materiel Command isn't the only foolish
mistake made by Phil Klass in his frenzy of massive misrep-
resentation about MJ-12. All his ther "Hard Evidence" along
with the complaints of CAUS and Peter Gersten also fall flat
upon careful scrutiny. For example, Klass tried to complain
that the MJ-12 Briefing document was a fraud because it used
a "wrong" date format (18 September, 1952---06 December),
"erroneously" referred to R.H. Hillenkoetter as Roscoe, and
the Truman-Forrestal "letter" was unlike genuine Truman
Letters. The facts are that the "wrong" date format, not only
was used by many others besides Bill Moore including Hillen-
koetter himself, and was standard with NATO and even
specified in an early version of JANAP 146. RHH's name
indeed Roscoe and his full name is noted on President Truman's
appointment book. The Truman Forrestal item is plainly
called MEMORANDUM and of course is unlike other "letters"
especially in not including the recipient'sddress. Klass flat
out lied about an FBI age test of the Cutler memo.
It is almost ludicrous for Klass to postulate what Ike did or
not know in July of 1947 and therefore how Hillenkoetter
would have pharsed a briefing 5 years later. After all CSICOP
has also bitterly attacked psychic phenomena and here is
PK being psychic.
The CAUS complaints, which reek of sour grapes, are equally
without foundation though quite worthy as compared with the
Klass Komplaints. Gersten's notion that what happened at
Roswell and most 1947-1952 sightings are connected with
Earth based technology derived from the Horten Brothers flying
w itechnology is frankly absurd. If any government
(the US, USSR, or anybody else) had the saucer technology capable
of supersonic highly maneuverable flight without
noise, visible engines, etc and made of extrordinarily strong
and light weight material in 1947 and was able to find
enough midgets to operate a fleet of such vehicles in 1947,
than why have the primary protagonists still built Mig-
21,23, and 25 and F-16, 17, 18 and Mirage 3 etc etc aircraft
with conventional jet engines, loads of noise and no super-
strong lightweight skin?? The Northrop Flying Wing Aircraft
was indeed a fine plane. But it was NOT a flyingaucer. Jac
Northrup personally told me of a sighting by an FW pilot of
a flying saucer. Jack was convinced that some UFOs were
indeed of alien origin.
No, Jim, despite the hue and cry, no evidence yet put forth
gives any indication that the MJ-12 Briefing and the Cutler-
Twining and Truman-Forrestal Memoranda are fradulent. Quite
the contrary. One is tempted to conclude that if the arguments
made to date with all the frantic scurrrying about are the
best that can be made, that clearly the documes must be
genuine!! One must, of course, take into account such strong
and surprising findings as Donald Menzel's activities on
highly classified matter, that the dates of both the Truman-
Forrestal Memorandum and Ike-Briefing are indeed of
special significance, that the wording of the Cutler-Twining
memo echoes that of other obscure memos from that time
frame, etc, etc. Hopefully all the critics will read my over-
view article in IUR, and then at least do more homework before
rushing to judgment or blind acceptance of the proper
sounding objections not backed up by solid research. It is
almost funny that Klass's sourcof the wrong spelling of
Materiel was a letter in the Condon report (retyped, not
Zeroxed), when there are three correct spellings, at least,
in the same volume!
I would suggest that the critics start doingome real research
rather than jumping blindly to conclusions derived from wish-
ful thinking and apparently fear of reality. Lord knows there
is still plenty of work to do such as unearthing who all was
at the Ike Briefing on November 18, 1952, and what Bush and
Forrestal discussed at their Sept. 24, 1947, meeting just
prr to their only meeting with Truman in late 1947, and what
Donald Menzel did during his trips to New Mexico in 1947 and
Hasitly, /STAN/
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Date: Mon Mar 14 22:51:06 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: California UFO Report:DBW
(From ParaNet and UFO Reporting Center, March 12, 1988.)
A pilot who was driving0 miles east of Edwards Air Force
Base in California today saw a huge box-shaped object glowing
brilliant white in the afternoon sky. He called the FAA ARTCC
at 2:00 p.m. and was told they had had it on their radar. It
had gone across their radar screens in just a single sweep.
It made an instantaneous 90 egree turn while the witness
was watching it. He estimated it was flying at 30,000 feet
and was bigger th a 747.
Contact Robert Gribble of the National UFO Reporting Center
for more information, 206-722-3000.
-Donald A. Johnson Ph.D.
MUFON Washington State Director.
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Date: Tue Mar 15 18:29:13 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: Washington State UFO:DBW
PRELIMINARY UFO REPORT
DATE: March 5, 1988
TIME: Between 9:20 and 9:25 P.M.
LOCATION: West Seattle, Washington
DURATION: 1-3 minutes
SOURCE OF SIGHTING: UFO Reporting Center 206-722-3000
INVESTIGATOR: Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON
While crossing the street on foot from a corner convenience
store a man and a woan observed a huge, metallic spherical-
shaped object surrounded by a corona of bright blue light
over the West Seattle golf course. They described the
object as "as wide as a football field is long" (300 feet
They heard a humming sound, and estimated the altitude to be
only 300 yards above the golf course.
They reported being nearly knocked down by a car because
they were standing there in the middle of the street "kind of
mesmerized" by the sight of such a strange object so close to
the ground in a populated area. The driver of the car who
stopped got out and also watched the object. Together they
watched the object for a period of approximately 30-40 seconds.
It moved quickly right, then left--in a zig-zag fashion as
it gained altitude--and then departed very quickly into the
upper atmosphere.
The woman is in her thirties and works as a transit operator
for the regional transit system. The man, her boyfriend,
i in his forties. After the sighting they discussed waht
they had seen with the other witness. The other witness
suggested that they not report it to anyone and drove off
without giving his name.
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Date: Tue Mar 15 18:36:20 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: A.P.R.O. Folds up:UFO:DBW
A.P.R.O. (Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization) is one
of the oldesUFO organizations in the world. It was started
in the early 19by Jim and Coral Lorenzen. In the last
year, Jim Lorenzen died, and it has been said that Coral is not
in too good of health. A history of A.P.R.O. will be
given in a later upload, so that you have some background on
the types of things that the Lorenzen's were doing.
The text is as follows on the demise of A.P.R.O.
According to a letter dd 03/01/88, it seems that A.P.R.O.
is no more. Below, is a reprint of the form letter received
in response for more information on the organization.
Several questions this person has concerning the unfortunate
events wch have occurred there recently:
Is there no one there who can carry the ball forward? Is
one of the oldest UFO organizations involved in
serious research into the phenomenon at the point whereby
its existence is based on the determination and efforts of
one person?
1 Mar. 1988
Dear Friend: I regret having taken so long to answer your
quest for information but our editor, Mrs. Lorenzen, has been
very ill, and we were hoping that in time she would be in a
condition of health that would permit her to resume her duties
as editor and memory bank for publishing the bulletin.
Since this now appears to be an impossibility, with her doctor
advising a complete rest from any responsibility, we have no
choice but to thank you for your interest, tell you of the
other UFO investigating organizations you might wish
to join, and recommend a list of excellent books for you to
read.
Dale B. Wedge : The texts continues and gives the names
and addresses of MUFON CUFOS, and also lists a number
of books.
The text goes on to say:
May your interest in UFOs last a long lifetime.
Sincerely, Robert G. Marsland, Saying "Goodbye" for
Signed:
Robert G. Marsland.
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Date: Tue Mar 15 15:39:36 1988
From: GREG DAWSON (ab237)
Subj: UFOs ][
Does anybody know anything about "Hanger 21"? I believe that
that is the correct number. It was supposed to be an abandoned
airplane hanger on some military base in the south-west where
the government keeps all of its play-thing that happen to fall
out of the sky and they wish to tear apart and analyze.
Has anyone who has heard of anything about this 'secret
project' please filln the rest of us on any new news or even
some of the old, interesting stuff...
Thanks,
-Greg Dawson
AB237
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Date: Tue Mar 15 20:28:00 1988
From: MARLENE GLASER (aa362)
Subj: UFO's- Hangar 18.....
there was a movie out not too long ago titled "Hangar 18"
about an alien ship that landed and the government did everything
in it's power to cover it up including erasing the original tapes
that the shuttle astronauts had recorded, and trying to kill the
astronauts. Excellent movie- maybe you can rent it at some
video store. I don't know if any of it was based on truth or
not, but it was quite entertaining.
-----Marlene
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Date: Tue Mar 29 18:35:09 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: ParaNet:Apollo UFO Sighting:DBW

Well, the Sig is getting boring, so its time for another UFO
upload. This one comes from ParaNet and is entitled "Apollo
Program UFO Sighting from 1960's Comes to Light."

(Washington State MUFON, March 21, 1988.) An interesting UFO
report from the 1960's involvingthe test firing of an Apollo
space program booster rocket recently came to light as a
result of a follow-up to the January 21, 1988 Whidbey Island
UFO sighting. Dan MacIndoe of Oak Harbor, Washington received
many phone calls from other UFO witnesses as a consequence of
reporting his UFO sighting to a local radio station and giving
out his home phone number. One of them was from Paul J. Allen
of Snohomish, Washington, who told him of his encounter with
a UFO while working for GE/NASA in the summer of either 1966 or
1967.

A quality control inspector working for General Electric
at the NASA Mississippi Test facility at the time, Mr. Allen
was at work during the st captive test firing of the
second stage, Saturn IV-B rocket. He doesn't recall the

exact date but he believes it was probably during the
summer of either 1966 or 1967. (The date should be easily
obtnable from archived historical records of the
Space program.)

At approximately 11:00 p.m. he stepped outside the Data Pro-
cessing Center building for a smokeaand to view the test
firing. He noticed a brig tlight approaching rapidly from
the east, which he took to be a light from a plane at first.
However, it approached the Test Facility at an unbelievable
speed, slowing over the Saturn V-B test stand before contin-
uing on towards the Saturn IV-B test stand, whereupon it
stopped and stood over the exhaust blast from the test
firing for a minute to a minute and a half. He descirbed the
UFO as 200 feet in diameter. It hovered at 3,000-5,000 feet
during the stage 2 captive firing, directly over the
exhaust blast updraft until the firing ended. Then it
approached at about 30 mph, came over the data processing
center for about aother minute, and left travelling almost
straight up.

Mr. Allen states there were 19 peop who witnessed the UFO
where he stood and another 9 to 11 people on the roof of the
Control Facility Building, who had been filming the test
firing and also saw it. No pictures of the test firing
were ever shown to his group although they were shown film
footage of all other firings. They were told that a weather
balloon with a flashlight attached had been the cause
of the UFO report and that was what they had seen. They were
also told that if they discussed the sighting with the public
they woulose their jobs.

A complete report of this sighting is being sent to
MUFON National Headquarters and to CAUS.
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Date: Thu Apr 7 20:52:04 1988
From: RICHARD P. DELL'AQUILA (ab114)
Subj: EASTLAKE UFO REPORTED BY COAST GUARD
In a reply to a recent question from Dale Wedge, Page
Stevens has mentioned that an unusual UFO event occurring over
Lake Erie in early March was the result of a misidentification
of the planets Jupiter and Venus which appeared close to each
other in the night sk. Page mentioned that a Coast Guard
report on the incident "agrees fully" with the Venus/Jupiter
hypothesis. The report has been submitted to an astronomer for
his expert opinion as to whether the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis
adequately explains all the phenomena described in the report
by the Coast Guard personnel, also reported by at least a half
dozen other independent witnesses.
The sightings, which hae continued unabated for the
past month, have been reported by several independent
witnesses, one of whom took photographs. The case is being
investigated by Rick Dell'Aquila (ab114) and Dale Wedge (ae511)
The document confirms that members of the Coast Guard
saw a group of strange objects cavorting on and near the icy
surface of Lake Erie. A local astronomer attempted to explain
the sightings as resulti from the apparent conjunction of
Jupiter and Venus in the night sky, coupled with "spontaneous
gas emissions" caused by viewing the conjunction through the
Earth's atmosphere.
The incident involves aarge blimp-like object, "larger
than the Goodyear blimp," which released up to a half dozen
triangular-shaped lights and objects, in close proximity to the
Perry nuclear power plant and Eastlake coal burng plant, and
multiple independent witnesses, apparent animal reactions, as
well as government documents, and hence qualifies for high-
priority.
The case is officially classified as a Close Encounter
of the Second Kind.
The Coast Guard report reads as follows:
COG: INFO COPIES
CPC DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR 9
FP D9AW
D9 AW DE
ISN-FP021
P 051405Z MAR 88
FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO//
TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS//
INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR//
BT
UNCLAS //N16144//
SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
PLANT.
RPG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER THE LAKE AND APPARENTLY ON A
SLOW DESCENT. THE OBJECT HAD A WHITE LIGHT AND WAS APPROX. 1/4
MILE UP. [Blanked] WAS UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OUT IT
WAS. THIS UNIT SENT 2 CREEMBERS TO INVESTIGATE. BEFORE THEY
ARRIVED O/S, WE RCVD 2 MORE CALLS RPTNG THAT THE OBJECT HAD
APPARENTLY DISPERSED 3-5 SMALLER FLYING OBJECTS THAT WERE
ZIPPING AROUND RATHER QUICKLY. THESE OBJECTS HAD RED, GREEN,
WHITE AND YELLOW LIGHTS ON THEM THAT STROBED INTERMITTENTLY.
HEY ALSO HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP AND HOVER IN MID-FLIGHT.
WHEN MOBILE 02 GO O/S, THEY RPTD THE SAME ACTIVITY. THEY
WATCHED THE OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE RPTNG THAT THE
LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST ON THE ICE. THEY RPTD THAT THE ICE WAS
CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER
TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR
LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED. THE ;LIGHTS ON IT
WENT OUT MOMENTARILY AND THEN CAME ON AGAIN. THEY WENT OUT
AGAIN AND THE RUMBLING STOPPED AND THE ICE STOPPED MOVING. THE
SMALLER OBJECTS BEGAN HOVERING IN THE AREA WHERE THE LARGE
OBJECT LANDED AND AFTER A FEW MINUTES THEY BEGAN FLYING AROUND
AGAIN. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE SCOING THE
AREA. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT 1 OBJECT WAS MOVING TOWARD THEM AT A
HIGH SPEED AND LOW TO THE ICE. MOBILE 02 BACKED DOWN THE HILL
THEY HAD BEEN ON AND WHEN THEY WENT BACK TO THE HILL, THE
OBJECT WAS GONE. THEY RPTD THAT THE OBJECTS COULD NOT BE SEEN
IF THEY TNED OFF THERE LIGHTS. ONE OF THE SMALL OBJECTS
TURNED ON A SPOTLIGHT WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT HAD BEEN BUT
MOBILE 02 COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING, AND THEN THE OBJECT SEEMED TO
DISAPPEAR. ANOTHER OBJECT APPROACHED MOBILE 02 APPROX. 500 YDS.
OFFSHORE ABOUT 20 FT. ABOVE THE ICE, AND IT BEGAN MOVING CLOSER
AS MOBILE 02 BEGAN FLASHING ITS HEADLIGHTS, THEN IT MOVED OFF
TO THE WEST.
USING BINOCULARS AND AFTER CONTACTING LOCAL POLICE AND
AIRPORTS, THIS UNIT WAS UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE OBJECTS, AND
RECALLED MOBILE 02.
BT
TOR-03:05:14:44
The Coast Guard report for the following evening
suggests that the Coast Guard had misidentified the planets
Jupiter and Venus.
I ask the astronomers on this board, skeptical or
otherwise, for their opinions as to the adequacy of the Venus/
Jupiter hypothesis in light of this report.
Page, I ask you whether the foregoing report "fully
agrees" with the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis, and also whether you
believe that these Coast Guard personnel, experts in their own
way and no doubt familiar with the night sky and celestial
navigation, could have so grossly misidentified the planets for
several hours.
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Date: Sat Apr 9 20:25:17 1988
From: DLE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: A.P.R.O. (UFO ORG) now defunct? DBW

Received this day, April 9, 1988 from A.P.R.O. (Aerial Phenom-
ena Research Organization, Inc) of 3597 W. Grape Drive., Tucson,
Arizona 85741 U.S.A. (602-297-7791), the followi
letter dated March 29, 1988:

Dear Dale:

It is with deepest regret that I tell you that there will be
no more issues of the APRO Bulletin. Mrs. Lorenzen has
been through some very trying times, both physically and
emotionally, no doubt hastened by the death of her daughter
last month. Now her doctor advises that for her own
welfare, she must not take on any more of the burdens
imposed in running this organization. And since ther
is no one else with the editorial skills and endless
font of memory to do the job, I must attend the last rites.

If you have unexpired subscription fees due you, I
shall be happy to mail you the equivalent in past issues,
if you will be so good to tell me which ones you prefer. (at
a rate of $1.50 ea.)

With trust that you will assist me in accomplishing a most
unplsant duty.

Sincerely,

Robert G. Marsland, for APRO.

So, it would seem that one of the oldest UFO investigation
services in the United States is closing up shop. That leaves
one less organization insted in fair and objective inquiry
into the UFO phenomenon available to the masses. The
death of Jaes Lorenzen last year, and the declining of
health is as sad as would be the parting of a scholar such as
Phil Klass in the Skeptics camp. A moment of history has now
left, and who knows what will become of the future. These
lines after the signature of Robert G. Marshland. And my
deepest sympathy goes out to the people that counted on APRO
for information, whether we believed in it, diested it
for our objective criticism, or just valued that someone was
interested in passing along information to the masses that
follow this subject.
Dale

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Date: Sun Apr 10 13:44:26 1988
From: NICK SANDULEAK (aa346)
Subj: "THE EASTLAKE UFO"

Durint he first week of last month the very bright planets
Venus and Jupiter were positioned very close together in the
western sky for several hours after sunset.As has happened many
times in the past,thesulted in many people calling the
newspapers,TV stations,the astronomy dept. at CWRU,etc. to report
these objects as UFOs.
In an April 7 listing on this bulletin board,Rick Dell'Aquila
gives the text of a U.S.Coast Guard report (dated March 4) which
he suggests can not be explained as resulting from a misidentifi-
cation of these planets.Although it contains an account of multi-
colored,noctural lights cavoring about and landing on the Lake
Erie ice,this report is devoid of the most important observation-
al details which one expects from highly trained observers.What
was their exact location at the time of these servations?Given
that location,what were the approximate azimuth and altitude of
these lights? Since the shoreline at Fairport Harbor runs almost
NE-SW,saying that the lights are out over the lake means that
hey could lie anywhere from SE to NW as seen from near the
lakeshore.
Given this lack of detail,it irather suggestive that the
CG people observed the bright light to "land" on the ice at
about the same time that Venus set i.e. went below the horizon
that evening.Nowhere in the report do the CG people say that
they saw the UFOs in addition to Venus and Jupiter i.e. if
this display took place low in the westen sky,one might expect
them to have compared the brightness and positions of the UFOs
relative to these planets.It is therefore most likely that they
were indeed observing these planets only.
Because Venus was very low in the sky,the multi-color effects
reported could result from atmospheric scintillation.The PD
reporter apparently misunderstood this phenomenon and used the
phrase "spontaneous gaseous emissions which of course is non-
sense.
It is my understanding that a UFO sighting can only be
assigned to the CE II category if it leaves behind some form of
physical evidence,e.g. a burned patch of grass,etc.I suppose
this report is being given CE II status because of the reported
sound of the lake ice cracking under the weight of the landed
UFO.A more likely explanation for that aspect of this event is
the arrival of spring.
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Date: Mon Apr 11 21:47:08 1988
From: RICHARD P. DELL'AQUILA (ab114)
Subj: TO THE ASTRONOMERS RE: EASTLAKE UFO
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PROFESSIONAL SKEPTICS, RE: UFO SIGHTING
OVER LAKE ERIE OVER THE WEEKEND OF MARCH 4, 1988
It is understandable that a professional in any occupation
will have a reputation to preserve among is or her peers, and that
the desire to maintain that professional reputation will sometimes
require the professional to defend indefensable positions (e.g.
"C.Y.A.") from which he cannot otherwise extricate himself. It's
okay guys, I understand. Youut out the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis
before the Coast Guard report was released and now you are stuck with
it for better or worse. I suspect that, being the professionals you
are, and given the natural cuosity which is the sine quo non of of
the true scientist, your real opinions are very different than those
you publicly express.
Anyway, for the rest of us who remain willing to fairly
examine ALL the reported phenomena and express our true opinions, it
is now apparent that the professional skeptics on this SIG have so
commmitted themselves to their position that the Eastlake UFO
sighting of March 1988 ws a misidentification of the planets, that
it is almost laughable to expect any thinking individual, who has
read the Coast Guard report of the sighting, to accept the
Venus/Jupiter hypothesis. Frankly, a more honest response would have
been a simple, "I don't know what the Coast Guard saw that night for
3-4 hours, it could have been Venus/Jupiter."
But at least you had the fortitude to respond. It is
important that the subject of UFOs be discussed openly without
emotionalism or hysterics. After all, we are free to disagree,
hopefully in a civil manner. I suppose yours is at least a more
straightforward approach than that taken by the sysop of another
Freenet SIG who, after inviting UFO discussion, has elected to erase
all UFO uploads from his SIG and who, when all else fails, resorts to
name-calling as a torical device. Well, taking your toys home
when you lose the game is a rather immature way to deal with
confrontation. Doctor, take an example from the skeptics on this SIG,
bravely sticking to their gus--going down with their ship, flags
waving--but proudly, stubbornly, sticking to their guns to the bitter
end. "Solution: Venus/Jupiter" period.
Guys: You are the experts. People look to you for ansrs.
If you teach, your students rely on you for accuracy. When you
publish, other experts rely on your objectivity and clarity of
analysis. Yet you ask us to accept the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis
primarily because you have put it forward as the "truth." Now that
the professional skeptics have made their final pronouncement, I
trust you will permit me to raise a few minor details, tie up some
loose ends and send along you ways to comfortably bury our heads back
in the sand again until the next time the planets start releasing
strobing multi-colored triagular UFOs 20 feet over the surface of
Lake Erie that cross distances of several miles in a few seconds,
cast spotlights, and scare the wits out of U.S. military personnel
for several hours. At least when the next UFO comes along, the handy-
dandy Venus/Jupiter explanation (or something similar) will be ready
to go.
By the way, what an insult to the Coast Guard. Apparently,
according to the skeptical "experts", their men are not capable of
distinguishing the planets in the night sky--even after several hours
of observation. Fair enough, but don't expect any Christmas cards
from the Coast Guard, guys! (No loss--they probably can't write
either.)
At any rate, at least you haven't run away and hid when things
got a little rough. You proud graduates of the Phil Klass School of
Skeptical Technique have recognized that the first requirement of a
skeptic is to remain skeptical: to sift through the evidence, only
emphasizing those facts that can be made to support your hypothesis
and ignoring the "meaningless residue" for purposes of clarity.
However, the a priori assumption with which you approach this
particular subject (i.e. "UFOs do not represent any phenomena which
cannot be explained in prosaic terms.") renders your resulting
opinions on the matter largely irrelevant. Although your credentials
as Skeptics remain firmly intact, be honest enough to admiyou
cannot adequately explain ALL aspects of the sighting. Don't push
sophistry.
I respectfully suggest that the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis is a
professional embarassment to you, since it completely igres the
observed phenomena and fails to explain how the Coast Guard personnel
could have been so grossly fooled by known celestial objects. Guys,
it's okay to admit you just "don't know" what was over Lake Ee that
night. That diploma over your desk doesn't make you a vending
machine--you don't have to dispense a Pepsi every time someone drops
in their change and pulls your handle.
-------------------------------------
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Date: Tue Apr 12 11:42:08 1988
From: RICHARD P. DELL'AQUILA (ab114)
Subj: Neil Hits the Mark--RPD
COPY OF LETTER TO DR. LAMBE
Since Dr. Lambe, moderator of the SF Reviewers' SIG has seen fit
to delete all reference to UFOs from his board, I am uploading
this copy of the beginning portion of a rather lengthy upload to
the SF OPEN Forum Board. (Apparently Dr. Lambe has concluded
that his OPEN Forum was to be closed to matters pertaining to
Ufolog. Thankfully, Page has not come to a similar conclusion.
Dear Dr. Lambe:
Thank you for your letter concerning your opinions on
UFOs, but I believe you are operating under a misperception.
I do not presume to know what UFOs ARE, because I really don't
know; but the evidence does establish beyond a reasonable doubt
that they are not ALL misperceptions or hoaxes. Indeed, the
reports that stem from IDENTIFIABLE sources do not, obviously,
fit the definition of an UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object.
UFOs have been reported by entirely competent witnesses
whose sightings have been corroborated by other independent
witnesses and instrumentation, such as radar. To make the a
priori assumption that all UFOs are the result of misperceptions
of known objects or phenomena simply misses the mark. I can
therefore only conclude that you have not adequately informed
yourself on the subject. With all due respect to your opinion,
I am uploading this reply to the Science Fiction SIG, as you
suggested, and I hope it will generate additional discusssion of
the subject. In the end, it is only by thorough review,
discussion and a legitimate scientific inquiry into UFOs that
any answers will be found.
In 1895, the philosoper William James berated his
scientific colleagues at Harvard University, saying "They show
such a lack of scientific imagination that it is hard to see how
one who is actively advancing any part of Science can [say that]
all the fundamental conceptions of truth have already been found
by Science. Think how many absolutely new scientific
conceptions have arisen in our generation...Is this credible
that such a ushroom of knowledge, such a growth overnight as
this, CAN represent more than the minutest glimpse of what the
universe will really prove to be when adequately understood? NO!
Our Science is but a drop, our ignorance a sea..."
Almost a century later, James has been fully vindicated by
discoverys such as relativity, quantum mechanics, and associated
new concepts that overturned the previous scintific "truths."
Our scientific knowledge continues to grow exponentially.
The focus of your reply seems to be that UFOs do not exist
as such, but your opinion is based on a false assumption. The
issue of UFO existence cannot be dismissed on the basis of any
such a priori assumption, but must be premised upon
investigation. The evidence to date indicates that UFOs are
phenomena not completely understood by our present Science, but
which fall into one or several of the followi categories:
that conform to the laws of physics, but require
extraordinary explanations;
that conform to undiscovered laws of physics;
action, conforming to known and unknown psychological
principles, or
( ETC. )
In reviewing the recent upload by Neil, I believ his
approach most accurately "hits the mark." We don't KNOW what
UFOs are or will prove to be. We can make some educated guesses
to explain all the many credible reports, and the
extraterrestrial hypothesis is only one among many of the
possible alternatives.
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Date: Tue Apr 12 10:42:09 1988
From: NEIL GOULD (aa330)
Subj: Re: Eastlake UFO report - Neil
Well, I personally find the report of the sighting from the
Coast Guard to be rather interesting. As has been suggested in
the last upload ( ASTRONOMERS..UFO ), I haven't the foggiest
idea what they were looking at.
At the same time, what was observed doesn't necesarily imply
the existance of extraterrestrials, either. While I agree that
the report does make me rather skeptical that the observers
were looking at Jupiter/Venus, it is important teocognize
that we live in an age of mistrust, secrecy, and undercover
operations as a way of life.
UFO means exactly: "UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object". Given the
objectives of our military; stealth aircraft, jts that can fly
in unusual deflections from a given course, and so forth, there
could be some terrestrial explanations as well.
Yes, in my opinion, the sighting report may qualify as a UFO
sighting. But to go any further than that without empirical
evidence would be difficult to support.
To be objective about this will require time. Time to absorb
and compare, as well as to verify and test the accuracy of
these reports. But without a way to repeat the event,
conclusions will be hard to come by.
Perhaps that is the real reason there isn't a lot of chatter
about these things?
- Neil
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Date: Mon Apr 11 18:34:25 1988
From: DALE B. WEDGE (ae511)
Subj: The Eastlake UFO:DBW

In regard to Mr. Sanduleak's upload, perhaps it is time to
explain that we ALL are aware tat Venus and Jupiter were in
the western portion of the sky that evening. After the sight-
ing, Dell'Aquila and Wedge went out to the sight and did sight
these planets in the western sky. We even took some calcu-
latiions as to the location of the planets at the times that
witnesses were seeing the objects over the lake. From
our determination, we can state that the objects that were seen
over the Lake were nt Venus and Jupiter. The witnesses that
evening knew where the planets were. The subject who reported
the objects was travelling EAST and was facing east when the
objects were seen to her left, the northern portion of the
sky, near the residence.

In regards to the Coast Guard, Mr. Sanduleak must only be
reading the report of the second evening. It would seem that
anyone being involved in the Coast Guard would have a basic
knowledge of the skies above us, since it is a tool that they
use to navigate the seas. I would also doubt that Coast
Guard personnel would mistake Venus and Jupiter as the culprit
being bind objects being seen to be approximately 500 yards
offshore about 20 feet above the ice. I have never known the
planets to do this. If you go to the sight of the incident,
there is no west to look at on the ice, since it is obscured
by the Eastlake Coal Burning power plant. From the reports,
of on-scene witnesses with the Coast Guard personnel, the
sightings were north or overhead of the witnesses for the first
portion of the sighting. After that, the objects descended
from overhead and came down on the ice. The witnesses, who
have been living at that location for some time, stated
that they have never noticed an ice breakage likke the one that
was observed that evening. To prove the object wasn't to the
west, refer to the report when it is stated that the objectswere 500 yards
offshore about 20 feet about the ice, and began
to move closer as headlights were flashed. At that time,
then it moved to the west, therefore, if something was in
the west, being obscured by the power plant, it couldn't have
been west and then turn west. There is another amazing facet
to this story, and that is that after this sighting, an indepen-
dent witness took a picture of the triangular sha object,
which we have the negative to. The object in the picture fits
the description made by the witnesses at the scene of the
encounter.

Lastly, because we ensure secrecy of witnesses, it is
unfortunate that the Coast Guard will not allow us to inter-
view the Coast Guard personnel that were at the scene that
evening. Who has something to hide? Is it Sanduleak that is
frightd of a real incident or is the Coast Guard frightened
that they have given the smoking gun that could open up the
paper trail on a real phenomenon?
Dale

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