November 11, 1989

ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw
perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,
Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news
which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up.
The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage
with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving
forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle
mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the
closeof las t evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for
Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person wuld be
featured on tonight's program who has claimed o work at Area 51,
the government's super-secret test range at Nevada Test Site at
Mercury, Nevada.
Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who
claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving
flying disks provided by alien intelligences.
Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to
possible involvement with the government in projects of this
nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been
of a very speculative nature. Although the material presentd by
Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been
disclosed thatParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has
started an intensive investigation into this release. Both Lazar
(formerly known only as "Dennis") and Lear have appeared on
Channel 8 -- Lear appearing on numerous occasions together will
Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' On a past
KLAS-V report, Lear was shown to have traveled to locations
appearing to overlook the test site which purportedly provided a
good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear
attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through
the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on
the tape of a substative nature. Lear also relates that his
group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his
attempts to take the pictures.
Below is a transcript of the program that aired this
evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the
segment. We were as accurate as possible on the tanscription,
however there are a couple of places where comments were edited
out due to inability to understand what was being said.
Further reports will be provided as information becomes
We've been working on the story for some time....UFO
researchers claim that there is a secret government within our
government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO
perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran
Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do
pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people.
This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight.
It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may
have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].
Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevda Test Site, is
no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things
go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy
flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on.
These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as
anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again.
The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile
long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection
equipment. Its been known by many names over the years --
Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place
to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's
exactly what has been done here for decades.
Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2
pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was
developed. The SR-71 spyplane that spotted Soviet missiles in
Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where
Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are
still tested, and where ll manner of CIA [unknown] business has
been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret
things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by te
forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom
Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the
people that do live out here have no love lost for the military,
but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own
Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see
something that you can't explain?"
Resident: "Sure, lots of times."
Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"
Resident: "No." (Laughter).
On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might
find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among
the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them,
but they are not going to talk to. Not about the things that
they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity-
seekers flows through here; strangers, dran by strange stories
of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered.
No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged
what so many people have suspected for years: That alien
technoloy is being tested in the Nevada desert.
The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO
researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius.
The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12,
states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was
established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National
Security Agency has onfirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but
denie that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will
not say what Project Aquarius is.
Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force
seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by
most accounts, ilegal. During Congressional hearings about the
land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about
the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority
was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force.
Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the
United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but
only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force soght to
renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once
again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent
artices in national magazines quoted un-named sources about
things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make
film-maker George Lucas drool. Despit the speculation, no one
who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the
saucer story.
Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying
saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial
origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew
international attention. Portions were broadcast by adio in six
European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in
Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has
remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A
young sientisct with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis"
was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at
Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.
Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea
what we're ging to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up
the phone."
Lazar's story is by any standard fantastic. He says he's
telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to
work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.
At S-4, he says, are flying sauces, anti-matter reactors and
other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond
human capabilities.
Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it
is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what
the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be
Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult
task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but
the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him.
Hesays he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National
Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle
beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of
generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials
told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there.
They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from
the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and
technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper
profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned
his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos
again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no
records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was
interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if
someone has made him disappear.
Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the
places that I called...."
Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"
Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I
was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."
He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must
sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the
United States Navy. He says he and other government employees
would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people
would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to
Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"
Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of
probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has
textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look
like the side of the mountai that it is in, whether it's to
disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."
He says he was never told exactly what he would be working
on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion.
On his first day he was told to read a seriesof briefings, and
immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.
Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run
gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive
mechanism. It's a bzarre technology. There is no physical
hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as
a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."
It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of
the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.
Lazar: "Right. They hposter, and it looked like a
commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy
it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and
it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which
lifted off the ground abut 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry
Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These
posters were all over the place."
Later, he got to see the real thing.
Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the
'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they
could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted
to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my
eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I
did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on i,
just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to
see actually lift off the ground and operate."
Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"
Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There
are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that
I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment
Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors
used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.
Lazar: "They did everything but physially hurt me."
Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?"
Lazar: "Yeah."
Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"
Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing.
Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into
my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at
me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."
That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to
undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron
Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.
Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen
anti-gravity propulsion in operat?"
Lazar: "No."
The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared
to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay
recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher
Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is
a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four
tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.
Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who
agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent
to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar
might be relating information he'd learned from someone else.
The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a
final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can
be conducted. And that's where it stands.
Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's
truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.
Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.
What's going on up there could be the most important event in
history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and
proof from another planet, another system, anothr intelligence.
Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's
real and it's there. An I had an extremely small part in it.
I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There
is no way that we could have create those disks. There is no
way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything
that goes with it."
Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture
circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In
fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after
certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he
did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-
4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the
scientific community.

ParaNet Information Service (Denvr, CO) -- In our
continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of
Las Vegas, Nevada, here is te next installment to the program
aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and
George Knapp
News Anchor persons:
A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S.
military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada
desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom
Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday
[November 10, 1989].
Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the
flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on
Earth. George Knapp has more onthe continuation of our series
on UFOs.
Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh,
other than Earth."
Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw
being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien
origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the
furniture. One of the nine flyingdisks he says he saw at the
base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO
photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it
the "sport model."
Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know
the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any
hitche s at all. I mean, it looked new. I I knew what a new
flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit
with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the
bottom and a large hole in the top with the etal bent out like
some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had one
through it."
Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he
suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The
realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed
the inside of the disk.
Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I
think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a
shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label
it. his is just a little advance that a group of scientists had
formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we
could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no
problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make
it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled].
And things began to click together just all too fast."
A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find
out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully
operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version
of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May
[showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a
test flight he witnessed.
Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any,
like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression
that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to
contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage
system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona
discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage
and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss
in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about
20 or 30 fet."
Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one --
that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He
didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very
impressed, nonetheless.
Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's
no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no
propeller, no noise. It's just, for all ntents and purposes,
To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used,
for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and
intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program
and were a main source of his disenchantment.
Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands
of the overall scientific community. There are people much more
capable of dealing with his intformation, and by this time would
have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of
people workingout in the middle of the desert. They don't even
have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're
dealing with."
Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of
anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd
randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd
threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really
didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."
Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular
guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer
business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a
long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't
just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and
that some things are properly kept confidential.
Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter.
Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite
proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another
system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't
believe that. But I do."
When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took
Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see
the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two
consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough
to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.
Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved
around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air
like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then
dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around.
It starts coming up the mountain range...."
This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to
the Groom Mountains [showing vido tape. A lot of
talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the
Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because,
with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points
other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about
the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not
once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews
with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second
Huff: "Through the telescope we could see a elliptical-shaped
light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a
secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It
glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got th
feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We
backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a
little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the
mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's
that....Just like you see in the movies."
Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge"
of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only
person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several
people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in
a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among
those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks
are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional,
who once served in the military and was stationed at the test
site, said he saw a flyingdisk l and outside the boundaries of
Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel
and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A
man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our
request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked
into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large
metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab
coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar
installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a
period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom
Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed
into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop
on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that.
The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was
ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to
keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.
None of this means that the military is actually flying
alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be
explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not
the case.
We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to
Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices
were contacted. All denied having any information in their
files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough
search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same
thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one
doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than
a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's
been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our
request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.
Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is
the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have
executive power -- they don't report to anyone."
Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military
potential of alien technology.
tions of the military potential of alien technology.

ParaNet Inforation Service (Denver, CO) -- In our
continuing coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another
installment of the KLAS-TV program being aired in Las Vegas,
Nevada featuring Bob Lazar, who has 'come out of the closet' so
to speak with information regarding government testing of UFOs.
Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area 51], tucked
inside the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of
the universe may be unfolding. The area is designated S-4, and
according to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors
scientific achievements that would astonish our deepest
thinkers. It is technology that, if it exists, could change the
world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds.
Lazar: "It's not an overall government project. It's not
something that Congress appropriates money for. 2 billion is for
this; 15 billion for flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars. It
doesn't go like that. I don't believe that they have any
knowledge of it at all."
The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond
flying saucers. An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to
produce their own gravitational fields, he says, such a
technology, if real, would answer UFO skeptics who argue that
aliens could never visit Earth because the distances between
worlds are too great, even at the speed of light.
Lazar: "Gravity distorts time and space. Just like if you had a
water bed and put a bowling ball in the middle. It warps it down
like that -- that's exactly what happens to space. Imagining
that you were in a spacecraft that could exert a tremendous
gravitational field by itself you could sit on any particular
place and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp space
and time, and fold it. By shutting that off, you'd click back
and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but time
would not have even moved because you essentially shut it off. I
mean it is so far fetched,'s difficult for people to
grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is they'll
never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's just what happens."
Actually, Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream
scientific thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein. The
difference is scientists regard it as theory only. There is much
that science still doesn't know.
Dale Etheridge (Scientist): "There are people who say that our
main problem with that is we don't know what gravity is. It's
this magical force that acts at a distance. We can describe how
it behaves -- that's what the law of ravity is -- it's just a
description of how it behaves, but it says nothing about what
gravity really is."
We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought.
He says we cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thng as
a working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out
a way to get around the speed of light. He also concedes,
though, such things are possible.
Etheridge: "Yeah. And really we don' know what's possible as
there could be other civilizations out there several hundred
years or so -- a thousand years, even a million years ahead of
us -- that have found a way to circumvent this. We have no way
of knowing for sure."
Lazar: "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness
everything. It's the missing piece in physics right now. We
really know very little about gravity."
At least that's the way it used to be. Lazar says the
technology to harness gravity not only exists but is being tested
at S-4. And, if such echnology is beyond human capabilities, it
must have come from someplace else. It's more than conjecture,
he says, because he also saw an element that cannot be found on
the periodic chart. The element, called 115, can be stored in
lead casings much like this one [showing a lead circular
container]. Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it, and
it cannot be made on earth.
Lazar: "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to
synthesize an element that heavy here on Earth."
Interviewer: "At least right now."
Lazar: "I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The
amount essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it
with protons if....atomby atom, it would take an infinite amount
of power and an infinite amountof time. The substance has to
come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been
produced naturally.
And what sort of place is that?
Lazar: "Next to a much largersun where there would be greater
mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere
where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize
these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring
115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By
bombarding 115 anti-matter s produced. A kilo of anti-matter
could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen
bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say,
the Hoover Dam would be like comparing planets to grains of sand.
115 could also make one heck of a bomb.
Lazar: "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds f megatons
off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total
conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of
power. And it isn't that difficult to take....get the energy out
of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall anyone's
The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the
reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he
says, back in April 1987. An accident that was passed off as an
unannounced nuclear test.
Lazar: "Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one
of the people that were to replace these guys."
Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter
a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology?
Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our
research on the flying disks, bu that the U.S. kicked the
Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also
believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to
Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO
reseachers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so
that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made
in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien
Stanton T. Friedman: "I think they have the duty to inform us.
At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want
technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on
classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need
another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government
does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed,
the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in
conjunction with the Soviets."
Lazar: "I don't think that it will get to that level. They're
not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around and....I
don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from
a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful
device. You only need one to operate. You don't ever need to
come public with it. You may want to larn more about it should
it ever break which is....might be what they're doing. Uh...."
Interviewer: "They've got one...."
Lazar: "Oh, they've got a few. Yeah."
* Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to
swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams that opened up
sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be
ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. His desire to
explain what really happened at S-4 took us to Layne Keck, a
licensed experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and privately
tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing papers
he says he read.
Keck: "I have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he
started saying that there were pictures of what I thought was
desks on the wall. Well as it turned out, it was disks that he
was referring to. And, at that moment, I realized we were into
something that was pretty heavy."
Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis. He
regards it as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory. He
says people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis, but says
the technique can be of help in determining truth. What's his
opinion of Lazar's truthfulness?
Keck: "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally
all of these things."
Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used
some sort of mind control technique t prevent him from
disclosing too much about S-4. While he says he has vivid
conscious memories of the saucrs and other technology there were
other memories, that even now, remained locked, which is why he
sought out Keck in the first place. Keck is convinced that
someone really did mess with Lazar's head.
Keck: "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his
environment if he did bring this information forth. Also, it
appears that maybe there were some chemicals used."
Lazar: "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. That not my
intention. I'm just relaying the experience. The job that I
went through. It is a fantastic thing. It's a fantastic story.
I can't take people there to show them what was going on, and uh,
you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it."
What if he is right? What if aliens are here? How would
this change our view of the world? Our most fundamental beliefs,
which is religion? We'll know more on that tomorrow.

My guest has (now) called in and I'm goig to run down who he is
and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his
own protection. eorge, are you there...
Hello Chuck.
Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...
That's right.
George, what do you do for a living?
I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate
So you are a TV newsman...
And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...
I understand that you have come upon some very interesting
information and you've done some special reports, could you tell
us about it...?
Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the
longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with
Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a
fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of
this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have
worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada
test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers,
that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him
live in silhouette in May, th response was incredible...we got
response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in
Europe, and six different European we decided with
this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in
more depth.
We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that
really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by
government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions
f people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the
latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated
Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of
the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'
-- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied
away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists,
although they might be interested in searching the universe for
radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --
they can't get grants...people would laughat them. Journalism -
- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially
by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly
landed in the USSR, people making fun of, we figured out
that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the
'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started
investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow
who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday.
His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los
Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of
checking on him and found interestingly enough tat his life was
disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos
Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where
he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We
called for his Birth records and they had if
someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however
confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found
newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed
worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with
his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in
our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired
to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up
to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to
S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the
desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he
starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures
of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on
alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then
he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there,
they are powered by ananti-matter reactor which produces its own
gravitational that does not exist on this
planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that
perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that
our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the
discs and noticed the small furnture...all the chairs were built
like for children...and then things started coming together for
him. Are you with me Chuck?
I'm listening.
Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...

Oh I think you ought to keep going.
Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was
a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he
was being harassed at home, his phones being he's
on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts
to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.
He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive
weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the
boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what
looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!
We showed that video as well...
Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there
confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits
of his story from other people, a former security guard who
worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former
By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people
postmarked from that area, one inside ofa base, who tells me
what you're saying is true. Keep going.
Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at
Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this
fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...
George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want
you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand
>>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news
headline and sports audio package from UPI<<<<
(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have
just tuned in...)
How many reports did you do, George?
We did nine total in this series.
Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me
that a scientist named Bob Lazar...
Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was
concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get
news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and
yes theyare's near Nellis, is it not?
Cause I have letters rom people who are at Nellis. Some of
which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their
name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the
story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there
are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.
Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as
possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for
other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said
that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former
technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently
and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked
in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has
seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to
7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a
dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane
that's doing this. We also interviewed the othr people who went
with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on
Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these
things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.
We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for
up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for
information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of
course the Navy denied having any information on the programs.
Of course in those requests we also asked for other information
about UFs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied
having that information as well -- so I dont put a lot of faith
in the FOIA requests.
In other words, what you're saying is that your organization
which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research
groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government
says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you
ask them again ty say, 'No, we don't have them!'
Exactly...that's exactly correct!

I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are
somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove
that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in
private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say,
'Well, er, nowe don't remember...'
The government says that they have done these studies that say
that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either
psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when
they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the
scenes they are very concerned about the nationa security
implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't
be caught, things of that natur. So the government from what
I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't
really understand it. The government on the other hand has
outright lied concerning whatinformation it does have...the CIA
for example says it doesn't collect any information on
UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents
from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO
studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency
personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to
us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding
what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.
Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he
looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture,
give me some information...
Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a
piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he
would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after
that hegot to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a
demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch
this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power
that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own
gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was
flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason
he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the
government, but because the research that's being done up there
is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for
as longas forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't
come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he
said he saw up there we being taken apart, kind of a reverse
archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the
research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the
things that these machines an do using earth technologies and
earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to
the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'
does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever
it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have
500 pounds of this stuff up here, jtust a little tiny sliver of
it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we
will not be able to duplicate so he of the reasons
that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are
working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets
of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here
we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with
it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert
are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...
But this is kind of common with the United States government...I
read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount
of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where
one group in one art of the country is working on a project and
I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same
project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!
Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the
compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that
nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the
beans as he has been trying to do.
Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does
he feel should be done?
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to
save his own life. He started having some problems when it
became obvious to his employers that e was telling someone else
about this.
We're talking about Bob Lazar now...
Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling
him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up!
He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the
meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on
the freeway...obviously he realizes that if thy really wanted to
kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to
shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime
against the entire scientific community...not only the American
people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been
told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific
community. So, what else can I tell ya?
What does he say about the aliens?

He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some
aliens up there...
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?
Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the detals of that, and I don't
think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion
until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are
aliens up there, at least one...
Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our
reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I
couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...
What did they look like?
Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey
skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the
UFO literature...he'kisnd of squeamish talking about it as well
because it sounds so crazy...
I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me
digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front
page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of
the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two
of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA,
stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the
grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on
the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little
grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two
little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall
Street Journal about the uestions about the truthfulness and
what happened with the FDA, what about would this ever
get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!
Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if
this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this
time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on
other things, how could the coverup exist?
Oh, I'll tell you...
To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the
question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the
world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits
and pieces, who's going to believe it?
Exacty...letl me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?
For those who are listening, I got into this investigation
because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck
you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in
the pas such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay
phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on.
o we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations.
I then found that there was a guy named Phil Kass who was always
there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything
was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine
which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial
complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be
out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests)
live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same
place, (runway) do you remember that...?
My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how
could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the
same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have
pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was,
probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up
there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they
want out of it.
So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil
Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know
everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy
Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of t and takes it
to the paper, everybody laughs at him!
There are actual documents the government has released (Under
Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program
that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term
DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to
roduce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying
saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their
spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away
UFO sightings seen by thounads of people as the constellation
ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the

Uh huh...
He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the
sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the
examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies
where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon
report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the
government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's
supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,
Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing
to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at
one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED!
One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee
witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural
phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I
don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!
Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and
from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some
have been coming here for years and years and it's nothng new...
Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other
types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have
beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're
going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...
You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch
on that, we also did some investigation on that...
Ok, go ahead.
Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to
check them out. ts been pretty much written-off by the UFO
community but when we put questions to them about the case they
can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to
Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case
and started going over the evidence. The photos had been
analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had
been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something
we on't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce
this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in
the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and
other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much
discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle
Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get
confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy
Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY
and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody
wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they
kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate
with them.
We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some
negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet
away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are
models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple
Swiss farmer could have done it...
I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier,
it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer
that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same
saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.
The new ones or the old ones?
The new one.
Ok, that's the one we've got.
Going back tothe things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine
saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the
variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the
Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy
That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO)
>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a
break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and
Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth<<<<
I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George
Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you
know why.
Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have
conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for
President promised thatif he was elected that he vowed to open
all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and
he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If
that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that
should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that
there are no CIA, contractoarnd the like involved otherwise
people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this
whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story,
then open up the files and prove it to us!
OK, hve the government let the press into these areas and don't
first clean them out...
On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.-
7:30 p.m.
George Knap, producer/host
Robert Lazar, guest
George Knapp:
Hello, and welcome to On the Record.
One month ago, we began a series of reports aout UFOs. With the
exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been
overwhelmingly positive. We've had requests for more information
from all over the country and from all over the world. Tonight
we're going to delve a little deeper into the subject with the
man who was the impetus for our report in the firs place, Bob
Bob, good to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of yourself for
those who might not be familiar with your background.
Robert Lazar:
I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.
As a physicist?
As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area S-
4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.
Where is S-4?
It's about 10 to 15 miles south of GroomLake, about 125 miles
north of Las Vegas.
How did you get the job?
I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through. But
I was referred to a person at EG&G to drop off my resume to;
that's where I was interviewed; though the job is COMPLETELY
unrelated to EG&G.
What did they tell you you were going to be doing? Or DID they
tell you?
No, they really didn't tell me until the very end. They said a
high-technology job, something that I'd be very inerested in.
Okay, so you get hired. And what happens? Do fly up there?
Fly up there. First day was reading briefings and that sort of
thing. And it became evident to me retty quickly the level of
technology they were dealing with: gravitational propulsion and
things that science has really only barely touched on.
We'll get into the things that you saw in a coule of minutes.
But it's been about a little more than three weeks since your
identity was made public. We had you on another program a couple
of months ago -- using an assumed name and having you in
silhouette -- but since your identity has been made public and
since this information has been made public, what's it been like?
What's been the response from people that see you on the street?
The response has been almost al favorable. In fact, everyone
that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested. I
guess there's just two or three letters --
-- from people that don't believe you?
Yeah. Essentially.
Responses from other media outlets as well?
They want to interview you? What do they want?
Essentially everthing, yes. Radio interviews, TV interviews. A
lot of people want to dig back into my background and re-trace
Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well --
were under the impression that either you've gone underground or
you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and sinister
forces. Anything like that happen to you so far?
That's ridiculous. People are always going over the deep end on
that. And no one's told me -- other than originally - not to
say anything. And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.
But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.
Oh yeah! It's the most secret program in the United States.
In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?
Everything up to death threats. I mean CONSTANT reminders of it,
signing away my constututional rights for fair trial and that
sort of thing.
And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?
Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I
pick up the phone, a little re light goes on.
The reason you came forward with the information to begin with?
Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you?
Yeah, it was essentially to stop that. What had happened was, I
sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned out
it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital! And
that kind of got me wondering what's going on. I put in a
request for some other information, previous jobs, and that was
also gone, and I thought something had to be done before I
The same thing - it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?
Anything happened since the reports have aired?
They let me know that they were around by doing stupid, childish
little things. But nothing serious, no.
You were worried about your LIFE though for a while there,
weren't you?
That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out on
the ir; it's a little of insurance.
Are you worried any more? Do you get the feeling you're over the
To some degree, yeah.
Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just
want more information?
I thik alot of people believe what I said, but the majority I
think do just want more information, too. It's an indepth
Let's look at some of the technology you saw. Whendid you first
get the idea, what's the first thing you saw that made you
convinced that it's not from here?
The first thing was HANDS-on experience with the anti-matter
Explain what tat is and how it works and what it does.
It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.
We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can
narrate along. There it is.
Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in
there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top.
And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't
know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .
115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little
wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons
off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower
portion of the craft.
But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.
Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks
really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.
Working parts?
None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back-
enginer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step
backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made
with earthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress.
How long do you think they've had this technology up there?
It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.
What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it
It converts anti-matter . . .
It DOESN'T convert anti-matter! There's an annihiltion
reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent
conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion
reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent
of matter to energy.
How does it work? What starts the reaction going?
Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.
Knapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or
Lazar:No, there's no button to push or anything.
Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an
anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with
any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target
system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and
somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-
efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical
generator The UFO Net's. { 4 }
Knapp:How is this anti-matter reactor connected to avity generation
that you were talking about earlier?
Lazar:Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous
amount ofelectrical power, which is almost a by-product. The
gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through
some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think nyone
really knows.
The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's
channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there
are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that
gravity wave.
Knapp:In essence creating their own gravitational field.
Lazar:Their own gravitational field.
Knapp:You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this
tecnology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we
didn't create it?
Knapp: Why not? Why couldn't we?
Lazar: The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!
Knapp:Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?
Lazar:Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave
included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles,
gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The
basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is
I'm not exactly sure.
Knapp:So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What
does that allow you to do?
Lazar:It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time
and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of
travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method -- going
from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to where
you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad; you almost bring
your destination to you without moving.
And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between
moments of time. It's such a far-fetched concept!
Knapp:Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life out
there elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here; it's
just too darn far. With the kind of technology you're talking
about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and
time and things like that.
Lazar:Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no longer
a normal reference of time. And that's what producing your own
gravity does.
Knapp:You can go forward or backward in time? Is that's what you'r
Lazar:No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the
bottom side of the disk are the three gravity generators. When
they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its
side. The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam.
What they do is they converge the three gravity generators onto
a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up to
power and PULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will
attach ONTO that point and snap back -- AS THEY RELEASE SPAE
Now all this happens in the distortion of time, so time is not
incrementing. So the SPEED is essentially infinite.
Knapp:We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw
the anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration -- you
had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.
Lazar:The first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend I
worked with, Barry -- pu the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on
as, as was shown there.
Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said, "Feel
it!" And it felt like you bring two like poles of a magnet
together; you can do that with your hand. And it ws FASCINATING
to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass! And
obviously this is just a . . .
And it was a REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled around
with it for a little while. And we threw golf balls off it. And
it was just a really unique thing.
And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty
wild stuff, right?
Lazar:Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field of in a
demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational area.
And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was
the bending of the light.
Knapp:Just like a black hole floating around?
Lazar:Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.
Knapp:And they gave you some kind of demonstration about time,
involving a candle? Explain how that works.
Lazar:Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it in the distorted
gravitational field, which distorts time, and the candle just
stood there. It didn't melt or burn. It was REALLY
Knapp:You had to be floored by seeing all this.
Lazar:Oh I was! That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now because
it must sound ridiculous to everyone. But it's just phenomenal.
I mean this is really alien technology.
Knapp:About the 115: We talked a little bit about it in the series of
reports. Explain what it is again and why you believe it could
not be manufactured here.
Lazar:Okay, it's a super-heavy element: On the periodic chart, which
lists all the elements found on earth and that can be
synthesized, I think the highest element we've synthesized has
been about Element 106.
Now from 103 - or actually, anything higher than plutonium up --
the half-life begins to drop; in other words, the element
disintegrates. When you get up to Element 106, it's only around
for a very small amount of time. Even science today theorizes
that up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there -- they
should again become stable. This is in fact true. That's what
Element 115 is; it's a stable element.
To synthesize it would be impossible. The way we synthesize
heavy elements is, we take a stable elment like bismuth or
something like that, or plutionium, whatever, put it in an
accelerator, and BOMBARD it with protons. Essentially what
you're trying to d is plug in protons into the atoms and
increase the atomic number. To do that to the level of Element
115 would just take an infinite amount of power and an infinite
amount of time.
Knapp:What kinds of things, what capabilities would a heavy element
like this have -- I mean other than producing power? Obviously,
it can produce a LOT of power, right?
Lazar:It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has a unique property
of producing it. Any of the other basic properties it has I
really don't know of. But using just the anti-matter-producing
property, the potential for a weapon is staggering! It's
absolutely staggering!
Knapp:Like what? A pound of it: what could it do?
Lazar:Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of 47 10-megaton
hydrogen bombs. I mean, it's a good bang! And a pound of a
super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like
Knapp:I guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy the
whole story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called S-4,
and maybe it is a secret area, but what youwere shown is stuff
that we've made. That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 -- that
we made the flying disks,that we made these anti-matter
reactors, because these are advances that you just don't know
[Lazar laughs.]
Knapp:Why not?
Lazar:Well, the 115, it' impossible. And the FACT that the main job
of everyone there is to find out how everything's made; I mean
that just contradicts everything right off the bat. The
materials are completely alien to us, and just the overall idea
of the project is: Hey, can we duplicate this with materials
that we have here? So obviously, it was something that was found
or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to duplicate it.
Knapp:The 115: Where do you suppose it came from then? I mean, what
kind of environment would that kind of element come from?
Lazar:The only place that 115 could be made would have to be in a
natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a supernova
or somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there was
more mass in the primordial mix of that system, where heavier
elements would have had a chance to form when the stars were
collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being released.
It's something along these lines; it has to be a naturally-
occurring element.
Knapp:You saw an anti-matte reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion
systems in flying disks, flying saucers. You saw this Element
115. You also read a series of reports that had other stunning
information. Can you give an overview of the kind of things that
were in these reports?
Lazar:The reason I didn't do that before was, first of all they were
just reports. Everything else I had hands-on experience with.
Now there was LOTS of strange information in the reorts, but
there again it's just printed material and it could be
disinformation. I don't know. But certainly, the information I
did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,
that all had material that related to that.
The reports went into aliens and even went along the lines of
religious --
Knapp:Well, we can let our audience know. I mean we discussed this,
when we were putting this series of repors together, whether to
get into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to for the
time being. It's not like you're hiding something from the
audience or whatever, it was just a decision we made. But you
did see reports -- whether they're true or not -- Government
reports about aliens.
Knapp:What were the reports?
Lazar:There were photographs of aliens. There were autopsy reports.
There was really a wealth of information.
Knapp:What did they look like?
Lazar:The typical "grey." I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a
typical grey is. It's a creature, probably three and a half to
four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes, long
arms, very thin-looking. I don't know how else I would describe
Knapp:What does an autopsy report look like? What's included in an
autopsy report that you said you read?
Lazar:The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it
was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all dark
inside like it had an iron base. The reason I say iron is
because it was very dark blood or whatever. I'm not a doctor,
but it seemed to be one large organ in the body as opposed to
identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one
gooey mess in it.
Knapp:What did the report say? It had pictures; it had to hav some
words: "Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?
Lazar:Essentially so! They had weights and densities of the organs,
said there were no conclusions drawn, but it was just a basic
description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.
Say where they came from?
Lazar:Yeah, in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum 4,
was what it said.
Knapp:Where is that? Any idea?
[Lazar laughs.]
Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli. Reticulum is
the constellation.
And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth planet out from that
In the same reports, we were identified -- instead of saying
Earth, we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the third planet
out from our sun.
Now you've read a lot of UFO material. Do you find yourself
mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there?
Lazar:No, that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers and things
like that. I really don't want to be associated with that. I
don't research the stuff. It's interesting to read, bt no, I'm
not mixing anything that I've read into this stuff.
Knapp:We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel
a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE right
Lazar:Unfortunately, yeah.
Knapp:Why the reluctance?
Lazar:I don't know. There are so MANY stories circulating around.
Everyone has their own view. Each UFO researcher says they have
the right story. And essentially, I don't want to side with
anyone because I don't know where that information's come from,
though they do all have the basic story: you know, there ARE
alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens brought
them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.
There's just so many different factions of them [UFO
researchers], and they all kind of war between each other; I
really don't want to get associatedwith them.
Knapp:Before you got into the program at S-4, though, you had an
interest in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that
here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the
Lazar:Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to
several places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific
field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and readsome
of his material. And initially, I thought he was just
absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did have a good sourc of
information because, as it turns out, some of the information
that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.
Knapp:But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist, did you
think there was something to it?
Lazar:Absolutely not.
Knapp:Absolutely nothing?
Lazar:No. I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.
Knapp:Many of the people who have been calling are UFO groups or UFO
researchers who have demanded that you talk to them: We've got
to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity so
he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can
further check out his background, etc.; we want to protect him;
we want to help him.
You've resisted. You've done this program; you've done a couple
of reports with us; and you've done a radio show or two; in
general, you've resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why is
Lazar:Just like I mentioned before: I just don't want to be associated
with those guys.
And how many people are you going to open up your background to
and let them run rampant through it? I mean, private detectives,
every UFO group in the world wants to do that! The idea was for
me to release the information, essentially to protect myself and
take some of the heat off. And I've done that. And that's all
that needs to be done, really.
Knapp:Certain UFO researchers claim they've been getting information
from you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and that
they've read these reports that verify the information. You've
been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-
Lazar:Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things to some people.
That's all I'm gonna say.
Knapp:Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made to
the Government?
Knapp:And why did you feel that was necessary? I mean, you took an
oath, didn't you?
Lazar:Yeah. But look at the magnitude of what was going on. I believe
that some of the technology -- maybe all of the technology --
should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything. But
certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a seret
from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of the
Let out the basic fact that we have these craft, at one time
aliens did at least visit and drop off something, however they
got here, that there was some contact made, and then cut it
short. You don't need to release the information on the gravity
generators, the weapon potential -- which is enormous -- and so

Ritorna alla pagina precedente

Ritorna alla Home Page